Thursday, April 22, 2010

This Sounds Familiar

Y'all heard about this new law in Arizona, right?

The one targeting Latinos as suspected illegal immigrants. The one that allows police the right to stop them and demand they prove they belong in America.

This one:

Up to ten other states are said to be considering similar laws as pressure mounts on the Republican Right and along America’s southern border for state-based immigration crackdowns in the absence of federal immigration reform. The Arizona Bill would make it a crime for legal immigrants not to carry their alien registration papers, and would allow police to arrest those unable to produce them — potentially upending the presumption of innocence underpinning US law and the principle that its enforcement should be colour-blind. "

When I heard about this I knew it sounded familiar as a black man. Not just on a random racial profiling level because that's the obvious way it relates to black folks. Nah, there was something else that came to mind:

Freedom Papers.

I know some black folks don't like anyone co-opting slavery for another cause. And I realize that Latinos would only be charged with a misdemeanor, not turned into human chattel if they don't have their papers. But still, you have to admit there is a scary similarity. Not only is there this Nazi vibe where a registry of illegal aliens will likely be created, but now we're telling legal immigrants that they have to carry around papers at all times to prove they belong here.

Sounds like freedom papers to me.

Those of you with a working knowledge of slave history will remember that black freedmen had to carry around papers proving their freedom at all times. If those papers were lost, stolen or destroyed, they had to go through extreme expense to replace them, and that could only happen if their former owners agreed to provide them. Plus, there was always the possibility that while you were waiting for your papers to be delivered, you might get picked up by a slave-catcher. Or, even worse, that an unscrupulous slavecatcher (yeah, I know that's redundant) would just destroy your freedom papers to justify placing a free black person into slavery.

So, when I see a law that reminds me of freedom papers it deeply disturbs me. Although I focus on black issues, I understand how other minority groups struggle, and I recognize when our struggles intersect.

I don't take this thing lightly. This is something that once again reminds me of how fragile all our protections really are in this country. After all, it's not beyond the realm of thought that other groups might one day be required to carry papers with them.

I wonder what kind of papers they would use for black folks?






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62 comments:

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

The reason you're so torn up about things like this is because you have a genuine distaste for America.

I mean, think of the injustice in proving your legality as you reside in America to exploit her social welfare and economic system for what is more often than not to the benefit of a foreign country.

But of course, bitter black liberationists ACTUALLY THINK these South Americans risk life and limb to come to America to be exploited.

A sucka on the take and in the tank.

Big Man said...

Thor

If you think it's a reasonable request, can I expect you to advocate for "Freedom Papers" for all Americans?

I mean, from what I hear some of y'all white folks are running sex rings and immigrating illegally as well.

So, just to be safe, why don't we have freedom papers for all Americans that we can all carry around to prove we belong in the country. I mean, it's not a real hassle right? No injustice there, right? If you belong here, what's the problem with proving it if an officer gets susipicous?

Sound cool to you?

Nah, I didn't think so.

Deacon Blue said...

While plenty of Caucasians would protest such papers for all Americans, Big Man, perhaps even certain colorful characters around these parts, the fact is that plenty of others wouldn't mind the idea at all.

Because, let's face it, I know that as a white person I'd likely never be asked to produce those papers, and most every other white person knows it too, sadly.

Shady_Grady said...

FWIW, Federal law already requires aliens to carry proof of legal residence.

http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-8289.html

The proposed Arizona law mostly copies Federal law.

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

You're a good lil equalitist especially when you're not feigning belief in Supremacy.

I know it seems "normal" to you to require Americans to carry freedom papers BECAUSE non-Americans have to...,

BUT...

What is your rationale?

Oh...! It's "equal."

Dude, you stand on sand, lil man. Simple America hater...

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

So demented are your implications that they have you believe you actually carried "freedom papers" like your ancestors and if this law comes to be, YOU WILL WANT TO BECAUSE IT'S EQUAL.

So the historical significance of slaves holding "freedom papers" is only riseable BECAUSE all Americans didn't have to carry them.

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

Are you an American?

If you carry "freedom papers" and the illegal/legal immigrant is carrying "freedom papers" so that YOU and HIM are "equal" then the equation is clear.

Illegal/legal immigrants = Americans

That's it. You just assert the "equalness" and make being an American as meaningless as carrying papers.

Is this Christianity 101?

Big Man said...

Shady Grady

Thanks for that info, I didn't know that. That is also disturbing.


Thor

You're not making sense.

And you never answered my question.

If we're trying to determine whether people are legal residents, how can we do that unless all people carry immigration papers?

Are we just going to assume that some people are white, they must be natural born citizens, while those folks who are non-white are somewhow suspicious?

I'm sure that would be quite fine for you, but I can see some obvious problems there.

If the issue is making sure that everybody who is in America is supposed to be here, then it would seem logical to require EVERYBODY to have some sort of proof on their persons at all time.

Now, Deac brings up an important issue about the enforcement of the law being skewed, but I'll deal with that later once you answer my question.

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

You don't have a driver's license or a SS# to identify you?

Deacon Blue said...

I don't like to respond to anything Thordaddy says because I really want to ignore him, but I must point out the obvious: No one randomly asks most citizens of the United States (most particularly the white ones) to pull out ID and prove they belong here in this country.

Doing it to people simply because of skin color would target people because of race and ethnicity and open them up to harrassment. It might also result in people going to jail because they walked out of the house w/o their wallet. Many, many, many people in this country enjoy the freedom and right to walk around without ID and it NOT being a crime to do so.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

The reason you don't like responding to me is because you actually have to think AND it's still nonsensical.

So Arizona is proposing this law BECAUSE it just wants to stop people based on their race and ethnicity? It has absolutely nothing to do with Arizona being used and abused to brink of bankruptcy. Nothing at all.

Idiot.

Big Man said...

Thor

Oooh, that was a bad angle to take.

One, it's not mandatory to have a driver's license or state ID. Hell, it's not even mandatory to apply for a social security number.

The police cannot issue me a misdemeanor ticket for walking the streets without a driver's license, state ID and definitely not without a social security card.


You're going to have to try again.

Big Man said...

Also, there is no doubt Arizona has a problem with illegal immigrants.

So, in order to deal with that problem, they've decided to require legal immigrants to carry ID cards.


Now Thor, what's the obvious problem with this law?


How do we tell whether someone is an immigrant, legal or illegal, simply by looking at them?

Clearly, you've decided that going by their skin color is a valid way to determine the probability of them being an immigrant. You've also decided that even if police stop American citizens who are Latino, and may or may not have ID that proves their citizenship, that's an acceptable price for those citizens to pay to help stem the tide.

That's what you're saying. It's ok for other folks to be bothered, or hassled to solve this problem.

Unfortunately, you don't even want to share their burden in a superficial way by registering yourself, and submitting yourself to random stops, searches and questioning without the semblance of probable cause. Nope, you're not interested in sharing that burden, but you think it's perfectly reasonable for other folks to carry it.

It's quite simple.

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

The problem exists and Arizonians MUST to do something about it BEFORE THEY GO BANKRUPT.

Your stance is that Arizonians really can't do anything ESPECIALLY crackdown on illegals aliens (law breakers) by requiring they carry "papers."

And the reason they shouldn't have to carry "papers" (the reason YOU say they can be here illegally) IS BECAUSE slaves had to carry "freedom papers" over a hundred years ago.

HUH?

You act as though you've provided some substantive argument against the Arizona law.

But all you have done is pretend that (a) you have some say in Arizona law, and (b) illegals aliens can continue to be here illegally to the point of bankrupting Arizona and Arizonians.

Again, why should non-Americans be treated equal to Americans?

Because lil man says so?

Big Man said...

Thor

I'm a guy on the Internet.

I have as much say so in Arizona law as you have in abortion law.

Silly wabbit, you've decided that this law represents the best solution for Arizona's immigration problem, and you're trying to use that as cover for its ridiculousness.

Here's the problem, where's your proof that this is a solution.

Law enforcement officials are BLASTING the law, questioning its efficacy and arguing that it's likely to make overall crime increase.

I mean, let's be honest, has racial profiling really made the world a better place in any other instance?

I think not.

Oh, and Thor, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

I never defended illegal immigrants.

I compared the plight of LEGAL immigrants to the plight of FREED slaves.

See, in the analogy, Freedom is to America, what freedmen are to legal immigrants.

A group with a perfectly legal right to exist and go about their lives is having an onerous requirement placed on them.

I mean, WHERE THE HELL WOULD ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS GET IMMIGRATION PAPERS, Thor?

LMBBO

See what happens when don't pay attention? You get made to look foolish.

But, keep on coming back and making me look good.

Deacon Blue said...

I'll see your idiot and raise you a "fucking moron." As Big Man pointed out, your reading comprehension is terrible. I didn't say they passed the law to harass people of color who are citizens or legal immigrants...I'm saying that it's the result that's going to come about, and the law will be used to justify said harassment as part of the "greater good" (which it most certainly isn't). And if you don't think Latino U.S.-born citizens will end up going to jail because they left their wallet at home, then you're not only a moron but completely oblivious to reality.

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

You and your sidekick are some dense fellas.

The law IS NOW REQUIRED because your type of liberalism has reached its extreme.

Arizona law enforncement CANNOT DISTINGUISH between legal immigrants and the illegal aliens that are bankrupting the state.

In fact, MANY "LEGALS" are actually illegals with forged documents.

And so their is a reason "legals" don't carry "papers." Obviously, they were exploiting the system.

You coercive integrationists should have predicted this like the good little scientists many of you claim to be.

Instead, YOU think non-Americans should be treated "equal" to Americans.

And your foundation for this line of reasoning...?

Liberalism and nothing more.

CNu said...

Big Man, this thread is witness to the abject and de-evolutionary mental slavery of something that is already dead.

The greed addiction has a long history but it is growing exponentially now due to the emergence of mutations arising from the frenzied covetousness of, and attempts to feed upon, remaining cheap energy.

This fatal, anti-christian addiction is spreading rapidly from Western countries to the East, principally in urban
areas. It is trickling down through communities. It is highly contagious and those afflicted are easily recognized by their anti-christian thoughts and ways.

No effective treatment has ever been devised for this addiction, largely because it has not been regarded as a health hazard. In fact, many of those that have been addicted consider that it provides a beneficial stimulus.

The enslaved anti-christian addicts are as delusionary as any other drug addict, such as crackheads, about the long-term impact and possibilities for their condition.

Quack remedies for this condition are proving ineffective as they always have and always will.

Deacon Blue said...

You keep digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole, Thordaddy.

You continue to refuse to address the fact that CITIZENS will also be targeted heavily, because they look just like immigrants.

You also talk about how many illegals are using forged documents. So, then, how will requiring them to carry papers solve this? Do you think police can just spot a forged document on sight?

By your logic, then, any Latino must not only be asked for papers but, if he or she produces them, would still have to detained so that the validity of those papers can be determined.

And will this stop people from coming over the border?

No.

All it does is impinge on the rights of citizens and legal immigrants to solve a problem that has very little to do with our immigration system or enforcement and everything to do with rampant poverty in Mexico.

TLS said...

Would supporters of this new law also be in favor of detaining and questioning any business owner suspected of hiring undocumented workers? Illegal hiring is already forbidden by federal statute and is also now part of Arizona’s new immigration law. Why is it that AZ guv Jan Brewer isn’t talking about training police to distinguish between law-abiding employers and those “reasonably suspected” of illegal hiring?

I bet it’s because as business owners, they contribute to the state’s economy, instead of sucking it dry like all those undocumented or fraudulently documented visitors who get educated, doctored and incarcerated on the American dime. Am I close?

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) uses an Urban Institute study to say it costs Arizona $1.3 billion annually to take care of all those undocumented visitors. Wow, that’s a lot of money.

Here’s another big number: $1.9 billion. That’s how much documented visitors from Mexico (aka: Mexican tourists) spend each year in Arizona, according to figures from the state’s tourism office.

I wonder how many of them will now stay home--especially since Gov. Brewer says she doesn’t know the difference between visitors who are in her state legally and those who are not. CNN reports: Asked what criteria will be used to establish reasonable suspicion of someone's legal status, Brewer said, “I don't know. I do not know what an illegal immigrant looks like.” I wonder if she knows what an illegal employer looks like?

She told the NY Times that racial profiling would not be tolerated, adding, “We have to trust our law enforcement.” Hmmm. I wonder how that’s working out in the rest of the country—a country where two-thirds of our prison population is black males, many of whom are incarcerated for nonviolent, drug-related crimes even though white people do just as many drugs as black people do.

In addition to the tourism dollars lost by discouraging brown people from crossing the border (and many others who empathize), Arizona is going to pay to have its police force trained in how to tell the difference between legal and illegal visitors. The guv signed an executive order to fund the training at the same time she signed the new law, which includes a $500 fine and misdemeanor charge for not carrying papers. The law also lets local government be sued for not enforcing immigration laws. The head of the Border Action Network says, “It will, in fact, result in tens of millions of dollars of additional costs every single year for local law enforcement, for training, for the court system, for the jails. It will require bringing on new public defenders, new prosecutors.”

Wow, it’s starting to sound like this bill might cost more money than it saves—but maybe that’s not the point, after all.

Maybe we should ask Arizona Congressman Raul Grijalva what he thinks it’s all about. After suggesting that tourists boycott his state until the law is rescinded, he was forced to close his district offices because, according to CNN, a caller threatened to blow up his Tucson office and kill his staff members. The caller also said he was going to be “exercising my civil liberties, and I'm shooting Mexicans at the border.” It couldn’t be that supporters of the bill want to fan the flames of hate, could it?

And surely it couldn’t be the case that illegal employment exists in this country because moneyed interests want it to.

Thordaddy said...

Y'all as crazy as one would expect a radical liberal to be...

You liberals are missing the fundamental point. You hate America and so what America does is not your concern.

You say non-Americans should be treated "equal" to Americans. You don't say why? You even pretend that it makes sense. But, it is merely what your liberal ideology tells you to assert.

You know legal and illegals aliens are exploiting the American system. You know they aren't actually a "profit" to the American people. You know they have no legitimate claim to be treated "equal" to Americans, i.e., act as though they WERE Americans.

Your stance is based on a radically liberal edifice of sand.

You simply assert with no substance.

Mental idgets...

Deacon Blue said...

Actually, Thordaddy, what I personally have said is that the law will unfairly target, inconvenience, harass, potentially jail, discriminate against, and treat unequally U.S.-born Latino citizens and legal immigrants without really solving the problem.

I am defending the rights of Americans not to be subjected to abuse by a law that is rife with potential for unintentional and intentional evil to be inflicted on people who live here, belong here and will now have to live by a whole different set of standards than white people to avoid potentially being detained and perhaps worse for failing to have a driver's license on them.

But you don't care about that. Because you revel in your whiteness and the knowledge that in being white, you don't have to worry about any of this crap.

You like being in a superior position legally, by virtue of nothing more than your skin color. It makes things quite easy for you, and you're a lazy person, morally, intellectually and socially.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

So you PREDICT "racist" enforcement...

How very liberal of you.

You and your ilk should have thought of that while you were diversifying the environment.

Why continue to tell us how you think as we already know? Why not tell us why you think the way you do?

According to DB, treating non-Americans "unequal" to Americans IS JUST NOT EQUAL.

So?

What's your point other than to say you're a liberal first, second and last? America and Americans are mere "racist" afterthoughts.

Thordaddy said...

What's even more laughable is the idea that you have some kind of solution superior to the Arizona solution...

Oh wait... It is superior.

With the wave of magic liberal wand, millions of legal and illegal aliens are magically Americans. Being American is just some "papers" and liberal magic.

Pathetic.

Deacon Blue said...

When did I claim that I had a "solution"? I don't. I also don't have solutions to toxic greed among businesses, rampant political correctness campaigns by various rights groups, or teen pregnancy, just to name a few.

The point is that what is being put forward in Arizona hardly serves to "solve" anything. You could argue that we should have a law that allows police to shoot a murderer on sight immediately and save taxpayers and courts time and money, but that would undermine the rights of Americans under the Constitution, wouldn't it? And it wouldn't solve the problem of murder.

This measure in Arizona is a knee-jerk reaction, and right-wing knee jerking is just as bad as left-wing knee jerking.

And in general, you're just spouting gibberish now. You keep saying that I want non-Americans to be treated "equal" to Americans. I don't believe any such thing.

Were I to move to another nation as a part-year resident or an immigrant, I wouldn't expect to be treated "equally" unless and until I achieved citizenship. I feel the same applies here in the United States.

But tactics like this go too far, because the only way to make this policy work is to ask every Latino in Arizona to show his or her papers, frequently and on demand. Problem being that many Latinos in Arizona are American citizens.

You wouldn't stand for being stopped at will by the police and asked to prove you are a citizen. That would impinge upon your dignity, your freedom and your rights. So don't tell me it's fair to do so just because the citizens in question who will be treated thus are tan-skinned.

Thordaddy said...

Knee-jerk reaction...?

Is that what you call it when liberal excess reaches its extreme and there is no other solution than sheer illiberalness?

You remain oblivious to facts on the ground because your extreme liberalism requires it.

What better example of this mentality than the fact that you have no solution, but are arrogant enough to tell Arizonians that their ONLY solution is essentially evil and immoral?

I mean, did you think we could spiral downward to the extreme depths of radical liberal ideology and the solution wasn't going to be ugly and messy?

Deacon Blue said...

You know, calling me liberal, much less extremely liberal, is kind of like calling Barack Obama white. It's technically true, but it doesn't really mesh with the reality of the way I interact with the world and the way people in it perceive me and respond to me.

I'm a left-leaning moderate. I know plenty of liberals, online and in real life and believe me, they would NOT classify me as liberal. I don't think you've had enough contact with true liberals, nor paid enough attention to me here or on my own blog, to understand how many of my views are anathema to a liberal. Enough of them to disqualify me as truly liberal.

But in your world, it's all for/against and black/white and good/evil. You haven't recognized that in very few parts of life (almost none) are things so clear-cut. If you did, you'd stop insisting that this was Arizona's only solution, and you'd stop blaming liberals for the problems of illegal immigration, when so many of the causes of it have nothing to do with liberals or liberal policies, but simply the realities of life and human nature.

We're done now. Because you're a brick wall and I know you will have paid scant attention to anything I just said. You will latch on to a few words and attach your own meaning to everything, absent any reality.

TLS said...

Thordaddy--

My mother’s people walked the Trail of Tears from Tennessee to Oklahoma. My father’s ancestor (the son of an immigrant) was in charge of the militia in Concord when “the shot heard round the world was fired” and the American Revolution began. I’m proud to be descended from both, and what I love about America is that our founding documents, if not always our practices, make room for both.

I suppose what you find "liberal" about the immigration problem is the way all human beings (even those visiting this country illegally) are treated humanely under the law--offered education, medical care and legal justice up to and including the moment they're found guilty of a crime. It's a policy that's expensive and leaves us vulnerable to crime.

Here's another "liberal" idea: U.S. businesses (and individual citizens) hiring only legal residents and paying them a living wage. When that happens, the opportunity sought by undocumented visitors will evaporate. Here’s a “conservative” idea: it makes more sense to spend a finite amount of money enforcing employment laws that eradicate a problem than it does to spend an open-ended amount on a never-ending problem.

The problem is that both the liberal and conservative elite in this country don’t want to stop hiring cheap labor from other countries. In fact, they fight hard to bring in as much of it legally as they can, and they turn a blind eye to the cheap labor provided by undocumented visitors.

I wish you could harness your energy for more than name-calling; your country needs a different kind of help from you.

Thordaddy said...

TLS,

To call open-border corporate socialists "conservative elite" is to pervert the very meaning of words.

The problem in Arizona is REAL and Arizonians are dying and going bankrupt for it.

Does the cause of one's imminent death have ANYTHING to do with what one does to save his life?

No, of course not.

If you and those that think like you are so concerned about "Latino Americans," legal immigrants and illegal aliens getting the shaft....

THEN TELL THEM TO CARRY THE "PAPERS."

Is this too much to ask when OTHER people are dying and having their way of life trampled all over?

Thordaddy said...

DB,

I'm a centrist moderate too and what Arizona is doing is the perfectly moderate and centrist thing to do. We'll leave it at that.

Deacon Blue said...

So, Latinos who are citizens must now always carry a driver's license, state ID or social security card, even if they go for a walk through their neighborhood, just to avoid being hauled away as a suspected illegal immigrant, and do so with a smile.

And this, along with legal immigrants always carrying their papers, will somehow stop illegal immigration, solve Arizona's financial problems (which are deeper than just immigration related) and will stop violence at the border.

Really.

Wow, I never knew carrying one's papers and citizen's being subjected to unlawful detention and questioning could solve so much.

Let's do it everywhere, why don't we?

Thanks, Thordaddy. I'm so glad you know how to solve Arizona's problems by putting ALL Latinos in their place, citizens and otherwise.

I really should stop, but it's so hard to resist when you leave yourself such an easy target on this topic, more so than most others you've spouted on. And those histrionics of yours are also amusing.

Are you stomping your feet and crying, too. Sure sounds like it.

Deacon Blue said...

Fine. I'll take you at your word that your a centrist, though I've never seem you spout a single left-leaning or middle-route thought, while I know I've spouted more than a few opinions that are middle and rightie.

How you see this policy as moderate is beyond me.

How you can even think it will change anything for the better is even more so. But for whatever reason, you believe that, and if you want to leave it there, I'll leave it there too.

Sadly, your post went up at the same time as my previous one, so my venom spewed before you put up a flag of truce.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

Lol... You're too dang predictable. You're like a puppy dog that galdly eats his own bowl of crap.

I'm not moderate or centrist AS those things mean nothing in the real world where TRUTH BENDS YOU and not the other way around.

You've already conceded that you have no solution to this life and death situation. SO AS FAR AS WE KNOW Arizona has enacted the only solution KNOWN.

What will ultimately happen is mostly speculation, but your predictive foreshadowing IS REALLY JUST self-fulfilling prophecy.

You WANT THIS LAW to be ugly and racist.

It legitimizes YOU and your faith.

Thing is, most smart Latinos will do exacly what is needed to continue to roam free in America. Legal immigrants will carry "papers" (wow, what an oppressive request) and those that forget will get the equivalent of a fix-it ticket. You've gotten one of those before, right? And the illegal aliens... Well, they have a big decision to make... Stay here illegally and face potential deportation or go home.

When one puts aside the liberal hysteria that is as predictable as the sun coming up, one realizes that the exploiters are no longer getting a free pass. As it should be.

Are you against exploiters paying their share?

Deacon Blue said...

No, I'm not against people of any kind paying their share.

Let me put this another way.

I'm sure you don't agree with healthcare reform as it stands (which is essentially in the form that conservatives called for prior to deciding that they would disagree with Obama even on things they have previously supported just to spite him), and probably not the public option plans that had been discussed earlier.

Regardless, I'm sure you find the requirement to carry health insurance in a few years to be somehow liberal and socialist and unfair.

But it is the law.

So, now imagine that the law is modified a bit so that you must carry proof that you have health insurance and that if you don't, that you have paid your penalty to the IRS.

Imagine that police are empowered to ask for that proof at routine traffic stops or at any other time.

Imagine that such policy is enforced more heavily in the "red states" the most oppose the healthcare reform law.

Imagine that you could be hauled away for questioning or detainment, as a legal citizen, for not carrying proof of your health insured status.

You would shit bricks and bitch about government being all over you.

And yet this is the closest example I can give you to show how your white privilege allows you to be spared harrassment that you see as merely theoretical against latino citizens and that I see as inevitable, unless police simply refuse to enforce this law because they see the stupidity and pointlessness of doing so.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

You clown.

Imagine...

If all those things come about, you should be hanged.

But then again, you think those that agreed with Obama on socialized healthcare are "conservatives."

Dood, you in la-la land.

Deacon Blue said...

No, I said that the healthcare reform plan as it currently stands is largely what conservatives argued should be the alternative to a public option/single payer style system. It was conservatives who floated the idea of requiring people to buy insurance, as I recall, as a way to keep the system private and free market and bolster the insurance companies.

They opposed such things when it became part of "Obama's plan"

Much like the conservatives are now against cap-and-trade, even though they created and championed in during the Bush years, and only oppose it now because Obama agrees it's a good idea.

Just like conservatives are arguing for military justice system for terrorists, even though it yields fewer convictions and even though civil trials were used throughout the Bush years, and successfully. But because Obama agrees, now civil trials for terrorists are wrong.

See a pattern?

And why should I be hanged? I don't like the current healthcare reform plan because, admittedly, I think it is biased toward businesses and government and lobbyists, and away from the public good. Yeah, I wanted a more liberal plan. And I'm not saying that my hypothetical situation in the previous post is something I desire. It was an example.

You chose to miss the point or pretend it didn't exist.

You're all for anything that oppresses anyone, as long as the people oppressed aren't white (unless of course they are "liberals").

You just won't come out and say it.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

What a piece of liberal indoctrination you are...

Calling a socialist a "conservative" is like calling an anti-abortionist a "liberal."

You are for "universal" healthcare and "open" borders...

You are the OPPRESSOR. I believe in God-ordained free will.

Your beliefs are ALL-INCLUSIVE.

My beliefs are exclusive.

If ALL don't participate in your ideology THEN YOU OPPRESS THEM.

This is what it means to be "liberal."

Charlatan.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

It hasn't dawned on you that you have no solution BECAUSE there is no problem.

The fact that Arizonians would do ANYTHING to impede the freedom of non-Arizonians is offensive to you.

Deacon Blue said...

Yeah, you just go ahead and let me know when that new law cuts down illegal immigration and ends violence at the border.

I suspect I'll still be waiting for that notification when I'm a senior citizen.

Oh, and by the way, nice job of completely not getting my point...again...and showing zero reading comprehension skills.

But I understand, you really know what I said, and you know I'm right. But you have to obfuscate, because for you to accede my points would be to admit that the conservative base and Republicans in general are opposing Obama simply to oppose him, even if it hurts the nation to do so...to the extent that they will abandon their own platforms and pretend that they never held those platforms.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

You don't get the point.

You are wedded to liberal ideology.

It commands you.

Because it INCLUDES you, YOU THINK it should include everyone.

And until it does, it is not "true."

That's why you are a relentlessly mindless soldier for it.

You worship AN ALL-INCLUSIVE IDEOLOGY?

Do you know what that means?

IT MEANS YOU CAN'T BE EXCLUSIVE!!!

Does your wife know this?

Deacon Blue said...

Nurse, fetch Thordaddy his meds, please.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

Just say that you are an EXCLUSIVE kind of guy???

You'll notice that you can't do it...

But you do do it....

You exclude people based on their illiberalness.

But the heinous part is not your exclusion, but your inclusion of those that care not one wit for America or Americans TO THE EXCLUSION OF THOSE THAT DO.

This is called an anti-American.

Deacon Blue said...

You're just ranting now, Thordaddy. Accusing and assuming and apparently accusing me of treason or something because I have a dissenting opinion from yours. I can't even begin to respond to you because your statement have no connection to reality...not reality in general, and not the reality of who I am.

Now that you've gone totally off the rails, I have no more interest in you.

But thanks for giving me a peek into what's wrong with discourse and debate in this country these days. I'll let you know if I find your missing sense of conscience or compassion or fairness or justice, and express mail them to you if I do

Thordaddy said...

DB,

The only glimpse you've received is the one that has you see how shallow your stance is BECAUSE it's standard liberal tripe.

You simply assume the role of persecuted Latino American, legal immigrant and illegal immigrant AND ASK...

What do I want???

Your answer is your belief.

Deny it and then tell us your motivation for predicting racist and unjust enforcement?

You are bound to the script.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

It figures that you would follow your regular pattern of engaging me and then retreating to the safety of your blog in order to receive some kind of affirmation.

BUT...

Just because you attempt to live vicariously through the exaggerated persecution of the "minority" does not mean the rest of us operate as a "majority."

How does it benefit ME to require legal aliens to carry "papers?" How does it benefit ME for Arizona police to harrass Latino Americans.

It doesn't of course BUT YOU HAVE TO PRETEND that I support Arizona's law because it benefits the "majority" which includes me.

BECAUSE...

You have to pretend to be a persecuted "minority" even though you're just a sorry white boy.

The gig is up...

Arizonians are getting exploited AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS...

This is the 21st century. If these "minorities" were getting the raw deal you are prophesying then they would not being coming here in droves.

Deacon Blue said...

Thordaddy,

What does it say about you that you continue to read my blog when you can't even comment there anymore. You're stuck in your own script.

But I'm not back here to argue with you. Only to point out, one last time, that the concerns I have raised here and at my blog have very little to do with minorities who have come here "in drove"...my concern is for AMERICANS who are minorities getting a raw deal.

You keep talking about the immigrants, who aren't going to be slowed down by a law like this...I'm talking about the implications for Americans.

And yet you call me anti-American.

You're so stuck in your own script you don't even know what I'm talking about.

Big Man said...

When I saw 46 comments, I thought I had gotten spammed.

In a way I was right, and in a way I was wrong.

Deacon Blue said...

And I should know better than to try to carry on intelligent debate with certain humans...

Thordaddy said...

DB,

How are Americans in America a "minority?"

And what does this law have to do with Americans, anyway?

Your Freudian slips speak volumes.

Big Man said...

I know i shouldn't do this...


What qualifies a person as an American?

Birth?

Citizenship?

Certain ideas?

Just curious.

Deacon Blue said...

Thor, are you being purposely dense, or not listening?

As for the first question, a black American is a minority, for example...12% to 13% of the population is Black. Ergo, a minority group. Or are you trying to define "minority" as "immigrant"? Because if so, you're a bigger idiot than I thought, and you're truly making up terms just to suit your purposes. Immigrants are a subset of minority groups. The terms are NOT synonymous.

As for the second question, you can't tell an illegal immigrant from a legal immigrant from a natural born Latino citizen. That means everyone in those three groups will get shaken down for their papers. Except that citizens...full-fledged natural Americans who are Latino by ethnicity...don't need papers and shouldn't be asked for them just because they share the same skin color as immigrants.

How, pray tell, is this law going to be enforced without harassing Latino citizens...brown-skinned Americans? How are police going to check on people without infringing on the rights of citizens who are Latino? And with the problem of forged documents, how can checking Latinos be all that helpful, without dragging people to the station who HAVE papers so that they can be checked out? Unless you're going to go all-out and just harass every brown skinned person in Arizona all the time, the law won't work. Period.

This is about as effective a tactic as jailing people for drug possession in the war on drugs. It fills jails but does nothing to stop the drug use. All it did was criminalize people for using a substance even if they've done no harm to anyone.

The Arizona law puts an extra burden on police, immigrants and citizens, but won't stop people from coming over the border to try to earn a living in the U.S. or for other reasons.

Thordaddy said...

Lil man,

What makes a black man, black?

The reason you ask the question IS EVIDENCE that we live in an increasingly liberal society WHERE WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THINGS ARE...

Meaning, we're living in a state of radical autonomy.
You and idget HAVE NO SOLUTIONS to Arizona's exploitation BECAUSE YOU THINK Arizona is the exploiter.

This fundamental lie that you two hold dear PREDICTS ALL that comes after.

Arizona acts and you demonize Americans AS THOUGH YOU WERE A PERSECUTED NON-AMERICAN.

But you're not... You two are radical liberal at the opposite extremes. Parasitic ingrates who attempt to maximize their autonomy by minimizing the autonomy of true Americans or minimize their autonomy at the expense of all Americans in order to maximize the autonomy of non-Americans.

What is an American???

If you're liberal, then WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO BE.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

You are dhimmi.

Lil man comes over and gives you a slapdown...

And you say, "gimme mo'..."

lil man TRIED TO CLAIM he sees reality AS A MINORITY...

Come on, dawg...

YOU ARE TOLD TO THINK THAT WAY...

YOU OBEY LIKE A GOOD SOLDIER...

Real Americans don't see themselves as the "majority" BECAUSE IT'S OUR COUNTRY and there is no need to see it that way.

You boyz bound to the script...

Won't even answer the basic question...

Cuz WE KNOW the standard answer...

Anyone that wants to come to America and live in freedom SHOULD BE ABLE TO regardless of whether they want TO BE AMERICAN.

Radical liberals...

Just deny it and then define it???

Deacon Blue said...

Well, that does it! Big Man, you gave me a slapdown. Thor said so. I must now despise and oppose you. And be aggressive toward you. It's the way of things! Prepare to defend yourself.

(Now, if someone...OTHER than Thordaddy...because I want someone who's grounded in reality and doesn't pull stuff out of their asses...can please point out where I supposedly just received this slapdown from Big Man...)

Thordaddy said...

DB,

Your leaps of illogic know no bounds.

Lil man TELLS YOU how you WERE IGNORANT OF YOUR OWN REALITY.

You say, "yes sir!"

And let the lil arrogant man have his way...

Deny it and then define it...

Deny that an American can be anyone and then define American...

CAN YOU DO THIS???

"No we can't..."

And you think yourself liberal...

Sheep... Go to sheep, lil deacon... Go to sheep....

Deacon Blue said...

Once again, someone please see to Thor's medications. He's hallucinating again. I don't even know why the staff at the institution allows him to use an Internet-capable computer.

Thordaddy said...

Deac,
u weak...
Justa geek,
black girl
swept u off yur feet...

SKEET SKEET

Talkin' white privilege
n mrs. Blue knee deep...

Ain't u ever wondered???

Y.SHE.AINT.DOOOWN... wiff duh black.sheep???

cuz u UHHH... Loyal white geek,
n dem homeboyz
hava side piece y dey kissin' homegirl on duh cheek...

Get it lil white sheep???

mrs. Blue LOOOVE white privilege...
Cuz white privilege DON'T creep
on lil black girls frumda hard knock streets...

U cross diss BROOOAD!!!
mite b 6 feet deep
white privilege boooy,
u extend it lika meet n greet
mrs. Blue snatch it up
talk dirty 'bout it like it need defeat...
double crossin' duo
repeat, I repeat
double crossin' duo
repeat, I repeat
double crossin' duo...
repeat, you repeat...

Deacon Blue said...

Eminem apparently doesn't have anything much to worry about should he be in a rap battle with you. Or Justin Bieber for that matter.

But hey, at least you've finally realized that Mrs. Blue is my wife, and not Miz Pink. I suppose with you, that's major progress.

Thordaddy said...

DB,

If you can tell me one important thing MM has rapped about, I would love to hear it.

If, on the other hand, you require a translation, here it is...

Mrs. Blue TAUGHT you about "white privilege."

She did so from a pejorative perspective. Meaning, she TAUGHT you that "white privilege" was bad.

Ironically, she is basking in your "white privilege." Mrs. Blue chose you, WHITE BOY, because she KNEW you would be loyal.

So loyal are you that you gleefully extend "white privilege" to Mrs. Blue as she turns around to beat you with "white privilege" and deepen your loyalty.

You're a good boy, Deacon. You just listen to the wrong people.

Deacon Blue said...

Ironic that you accuse my wife of controlling and bullying tactics, and yet that's what you use as well, trying to pummel me into believing thst it's good for white people to purposefully keep people of color down.

You're not going to goad me, because I know all too well what my life is, whagt my marriage is and what my own beliefs are.

You are the one who knows nothing, yet keeps trying to school me.

I didn't need a translation, what I need is your silence. But because you don't know how to do that, I';ll help you by not returning to this comment thread, and ignoring your inane natterings, whole you can go back to attending teabag rallies or KKK meetings or whatever your personal style is.

Thordaddy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thordaddy said...

DB,

Yeah, I pummel you with labels like liberal, radical autonomist and anti-American and you respond with one liberal cliche after another, Nazi, KKK, teabaggers...

Then the clown is going to request my silence like a good lil tyrant who loathes those that aren't very submissive to his will.

So this jerk who is on a self-deceptive drive TO COERCIVELY INCLUDE ALL OF US in his liberal ideological paradigm can't tolerate those that wish to be excluded.

DB is mad because I won't be his lil buddy...

And the reason I won't be his buddy IS CUZ HE AIN'T EXCLUSIVE. He's inclusive. Which means he's got a lot of lil buddies and doesn't really need anymore.

That doesn't stop DB from finding a few lil nonwhite buddies in Arizona. So who exploits who? Does DB exploit the alien by feigning to be an alien. Or, does the alien exploit DB by making him empathetic to the alien's "persecution?"

Raving Black Lunatic