tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post2064631754134849666..comments2023-10-31T06:20:45.622-05:00Comments on Raving Black Lunatic: Fantastical VoyageBig Manhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02510881583909431416noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-3045342050188482992009-09-09T16:45:26.965-05:002009-09-09T16:45:26.965-05:00Darth Whitey,
If you are agnostic as to whether y...Darth Whitey,<br /><br />If you are agnostic as to whether you can orient yourself towards the Truth then what else needs to be known about how to evaluate all your other pontifications?<br /><br />Although, if you decide to concede that YOU can orient yourself towards the Truth, then you must explain what is in the mechanisms of evolutionary theory that explains such phenomenon?<br /><br />And then when you realize that the fundamental mechanisms of evolution -- "natural selection," i.e., environment (gameboard) and "variant mutations, i.e., fundamental material aspect of life -- in no way help to <br />explain why <i>homo sapien</i> orients himself towards Truth, you will then have to come to a different conclusion.<br /><br />The best you can posit is that such an orientation is advantageous. This is just the tacit recognition of a Higher Order.Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-2582559175770746702009-09-08T22:57:53.959-05:002009-09-08T22:57:53.959-05:00I'm not sure either, man, which is why I was t...I'm not sure either, man, which is why I was trying to center in on things. Anyway, thanks for the clarification, and agreed that incest is gross...and certainly most cultures have agreed on that point.<br />;-)Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-81001236781040190642009-09-08T21:39:30.758-05:002009-09-08T21:39:30.758-05:00Well I'll let you have the last word since I d...Well I'll let you have the last word since I don't even know what it is we're arguing about anymore but just a correction: I did not say that sibling marriage in Egypt was evil, I said it was gross (sick.)Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-87011388919085427502009-09-08T20:40:33.706-05:002009-09-08T20:40:33.706-05:00Darth, I'm not trying to paint them as wonderf...Darth, I'm not trying to paint them as wonderful people. C'mon. Not trying to brush off that evil things were done.<br /><br />But many things we think are "wrong" are only wrong contextually. Different cultures practice different things, sometimes because it was simply tradition and sometimes out of ignorance. But let's take some culture like, say, Native American culture. Young man, nothing more than a boy really, sent out to fend for himself in the wilderness with little or nothing carried with him. Back then, rite of passage. Today, child neglect and endangerment.<br /><br />We can pick out specific things that are wrong because they force one people upon another (slavery for example), and that's an easy target because it involved force and coercion. But you're going to say sibling marriage in Egypt was evil and they knew it? It was cultural in the end, and to preserve the royal lines. It was, in their minds, a necessity.<br /><br />For someone who says he doesn't care what people did 3,000 years ago (or more), you sure are being passionate about it.<br /><br />Not sure what nerve I've hit or why it runs so deep for you, but even as a mostly liberal, Democrat-voting, Jesus-praising Christian, I am loathe to start widely casting modern day judgments on cultures and people who lived in times that don't resemble modern day one little bit. No matter how far they go afield of what I think is right.<br /><br />There are many Jews who think Jesus as a blasphemous, socially destructive person. A megalomaniac who disparaged true Judaism. I feel they have a right to feel that way, because from their perspective, that's who he was. They don't see a socially progressive Messiah and son of God who preached the greatest message of love around. And why should I expect them to?Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-47248216668953505332009-09-08T16:13:41.450-05:002009-09-08T16:13:41.450-05:00Yes, the marriage of siblings in Egypt was just as...Yes, the marriage of siblings in Egypt was just as sick then as it is today, just as the lynching of blacks was just as evil 50 years ago as it is today. Do you think people who participated in those back then were just goin' with the flow of their time and were fundamentally nice folk? Please.<br /><br />And for the record, I don't give a crap if siblings marry today or 3000 years ago, not my problem.<br /><br />Who's trying to force me to respect their beliefs? Everyone who thinks those Mohammed cartoons should never appear anywhere, everyone who insists that Bush was a great president, everyone who insists the earth was made in a day. I'm just sick of it.Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-8799662605019752962009-09-08T15:42:20.190-05:002009-09-08T15:42:20.190-05:00You said:
"The historical context of a 6 yea...You said:<br /><br />"The historical context of a 6 year old girl marrying a grown man makes no difference, especially when the grown man in question is supposedly a prophet from God, he should know better."<br /><br />Who's trying to force you to respect their beliefs?<br /><br />I simply said that your statement that historical context makes no difference is patently absurd.<br /><br />Does the historical context make no difference in the fact that among the royalty of ancient Egypt, brothers and sisters married each other? Do we judge that activity by notions of incest in Judeo-Christian tradition or modern day?<br /><br />I'm not defending the prophet, man, I'm saying you can't throw out a statement like "historical context doesn't matter" and then say, as a man of God, he would have done other than what might be acceptable in societal norms of the time. Which, for all I know, what he did WASN'T part of the norm.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-20767003162606287022009-09-08T15:27:53.915-05:002009-09-08T15:27:53.915-05:00Deac, with all due respect I think you're argu...Deac, with all due respect I think you're arguing against a strawman. I did not say that historical context never matters, I said it doesn't matter in the case of statutory rape of a 6 year old girl, whether the rapist is a prophet or not (or rather, especially when he is a prophet.) Although to be fair I think he didn't actually rape her until she was 8 or something. Big difference heh.<br /><br />I know that back then women started bearing children pretty much at the onset of puberty and that boys were considered men very early as well. It's logical. But come on. Are you so P.C. that you'll defend anything? Remove the religious claims and can you honestly say that Mohammed was not a crazed psychopath who murdered thousands of people who disagreed with him?<br /><br />Why do I have to "respect" a murderous lunatic just because a billion people think he was some kind of great prophet? No, he was just some charismatic psychopath, just as Jesus was a lunatic, even if he was a very nice guy, the same kind of guy who now yells about god and hell and stuff on street corners or reads the bible loudly on college campuses. Why don't people take them seriously? How bout if we write about them today and then ask people to believe in them in 2,000 years, does that make them credible all of a sudden?<br /><br />I have no more respect for Mohammed than I do for David Koresh or any other charismatic snake oil salesman who manages to get his followers to do absurd things in the name of some higher belief. These guys are only better than Warren Jeffs and L.Ron Hubbard in that at least they have the excuse of being mentally ill.<br /><br />You can believe in whatever you want but I am really sick and tired of people trying to force me to respect their beliefs. I don't ask anyone to respect my beliefs about Zeus or a flying spaghetti monster.Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-23280580173142402722009-09-08T12:57:56.108-05:002009-09-08T12:57:56.108-05:00Darth,
I don't now how right or wrong sex wit...Darth,<br /><br />I don't now how right or wrong sex with a child that young was considered back then.<br /><br />But to suggest that historical context means nothing is absurd.<br /><br />In a time when people might commonly not live past their 40s or 50s, and often fell prey to disease, age of sexual maturity differs a lot.<br /><br />Now, that said, I suspect a 6-year-old wasn't exactly "kosher" (apologies for the pun and for mixing religious metaphors) given that she isn't even fertile yet, but let's face it, making a girl who's reached puberty your wife back then would be entirely proper even if it is entirely improper now. So, the DEGREE to which historical context is applied varies, but there is context. A prophet of God wouldn't be held to 20th and 21st century standards and laws.<br /><br />Slavery of that time also has a historical context. As do many other things. We cannot look at all of those things through modern eyes and apply modern morality to things that have a totally different context.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-11967211977418777822009-09-08T03:56:43.390-05:002009-09-08T03:56:43.390-05:00The historical context of human sacrifice makes no...The historical context of human sacrifice makes no difference in today's modern morality but the Biblical God required it on occasion.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-23763287328571457202009-09-08T03:11:08.525-05:002009-09-08T03:11:08.525-05:00Ed M.,
The historical context of a 6 year old gir...Ed M.,<br /><br />The historical context of a 6 year old girl marrying a grown man makes no difference, especially when the grown man in question is supposedly a prophet from God, he should know better. After all, aren't we all repulsed when fundamentalist Mormons do it? Or when David Koresh was doing it? How do you know that he wasn't a prophet? His C.V. was pretty tame compared to Mohammed (PBUH).Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-23700459464905335952009-09-08T03:06:40.708-05:002009-09-08T03:06:40.708-05:00Thor,
I do not have an answer to any of those que...Thor,<br /><br />I do not have an answer to any of those questions, nor do I believe that I ever will. Moreover, I don't think that any human can know. The absence of answers to complex questions makes humans invent unverifiable answers.<br /><br />Think of how we don't know by what means the Egyptians, Aztecs, and Burmese all built their respective pyramids given that none of them had the technology necessary to do so at the time, nor would they have it for centuries. A common arms-up-in-the-air explanation people enjoy is that aliens came and built them. There, done, we can stop thinking about it now. Balderdash, that's lazy.Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-70783148815748497832009-09-06T23:55:01.066-05:002009-09-06T23:55:01.066-05:00Darth Whitey,
Do you have free will? Meaning, ca...Darth Whitey,<br /><br />Do you have free will? Meaning, can you live righteous and truthful and therefore free your will of anguish, despair, depression, etc.? Could such a collection of phenonema be the product of descent with modification? Who or what is doing the modifying and who or what created the descent?Thordaddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15887901925655428541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-27778222447296403972009-09-05T17:49:27.143-05:002009-09-05T17:49:27.143-05:00and for the historical period all the women childr...and for the historical period all the women children who didn't have husbands would have been about eight. Something to keep in mind when slamming the Muslims over Aisha.<br /><br />I'm not going to defend Dawkins, I'm an agnostic who flirts with atheism and he's not just a jerk but he's really wrong about a number of things.<br /><br />If you really delve down into modern, quantum mechanics of the "many worlds" school (which has the advantage of it's predictions be confirmed year after year), you wind up with something that looks suspiciously like God. <br /><br />A tiny fraction more or less matter in this universe and the big bang would have either closed right back up or blew everything into a fine ever-expanding bunch of hydrogen atoms.<br /><br />That also doesn't make me a Christian (although I've found that if I think I'm dying I grab Jesus back real quick as sort of a Hail Mary pass). As a matter of fact, if what I believe may be correct is true: What we experience as reality was set up and started by a creator, I can very well imagine anyone starting a system of predatory evolution as quite evil and something to be shunned.Ed M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14032816262433847847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-9518988681562685302009-09-04T18:11:31.788-05:002009-09-04T18:11:31.788-05:00The actual Greek translates as young man or youth....The actual Greek translates as young man or youth. We don't know how old he is.<br /><br />Either way we don't know what he was doing there and it's passing odd that a semi-nude youth is hanging out with Jesus at nighttime.<br /><br />My only point is that each religious tradition has some beliefs or events which appear weird, crazy or even evil to a non-believer. So whether it's Moses ordering the deaths of multitudes (with the notable exception of young virgin girl children) who are to be saved for the use of the Israelites, or Muhammad marrying a nine year old girl, I don't see a lot of difference.<br /><i><br />Numbers(31:17-18)<br />"Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."</i>Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-25363158202197716132009-09-04T16:08:26.737-05:002009-09-04T16:08:26.737-05:00That is an odd passage. Never really noticed it be...That is an odd passage. Never really noticed it before. Of course, the key thing here is that he isn't mentioned as part of Jesus' previous activities in the Garden of Gethsemane and there is no direct connection between the two of them, so trying to establish any clarity would be difficult. My study Bible suggests it may be a reference to Mark himself, but who knows? <br /><br />Also, young man doesn't equal "boy," so that takes out the pedophile part...even if he was a teen, that would be adult back in those days.<br /><br />He IS covered when the priests and guards come upon the group, and the nature of the cloth is unclear. Was he engaging in sex? Was he sleeping while Jesus was praying, and it was a hot-ass night so he took off his clothes and wrapped himself in a light cloth? Was the linen cloth actually a robe or some kind of simple clothing? Did he throw it off as a way to distract folks so he could flee? Did somebody try to grab his linen garb and he cast it off to escape that hold? Too vague, too many variables.<br /><br />Odd passage, but ultimately inscrutable.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-87642689905557868162009-09-04T12:12:05.739-05:002009-09-04T12:12:05.739-05:00And there followed him a certain young man, having...<i><br />And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; <br />and the young men laid hold on him:<br />and he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.<br />- Mark 14:51, 52<br /></i><br />That young man is not mentioned again. There's nothing about healing that particular young man. The Bible does not detail as to why he was there with Jesus. It is a very odd and curious statement to be included in the Gospel of Mark.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-88836322153275058502009-09-04T10:53:26.627-05:002009-09-04T10:53:26.627-05:00The naked boy in the garden?
Please elaborate on ...The naked boy in the garden?<br /><br />Please elaborate on what passage you are referring to, because that sounds like some serious twisting of wording in the gospel to me.<br /><br />And if you mean the possessed (or perhaps mentally ill) young man who shredded his clothes and, if I recall, tried to throw himself into fires, Jesus went and healed him...he wasn't radnomly hanging out with the guy to bone him up the backside.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-80972041237070142622009-09-04T05:41:59.841-05:002009-09-04T05:41:59.841-05:00The short answer about the Dawkins-Stein exchange ...The short answer about the Dawkins-Stein exchange is that Dawkins was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Allowing for the possibility of one organism creating or re-engineering another does not disprove evolution or mean that an all powerful entity exists that breaks the laws of physics. Dawkins does NOT believe in alien creation of earthly life.<br /><br />The long answer and it is VERY long is at Dawkins site (about a third of the way down this page)<br /><br />http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins<br /><br />As far as the accusations about Muhammad they may be true. I don't know. I'm not sure he even existed. But if we accept them as valid do we also accept that Moses was a genocidal bastard or that Jesus was a gay pedophile (what was really going on with the naked boy in the garden). I think every religion or myth has some things they'd rather not talk about. To a true believer those things won't matter.Shady_Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00996625985002373392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-34858508895384307162009-09-03T23:03:12.015-05:002009-09-03T23:03:12.015-05:00BTW, Big Man, I wanted to take you up on your sugg...BTW, Big Man, I wanted to take you up on your suggestion a couple weeks ago to read the Riverworld series, but my little library in my little town...as good as it is in so many ways...doesn't stock much of the classic sci-fi. I'll keep my eyes peeled though for maybe some eBay or Amazon deals on a full set of the series when I have a few extra clams, though.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-74000702528235411782009-09-03T19:24:34.081-05:002009-09-03T19:24:34.081-05:00Well AFAIK Muslims don't dispute the bloody co...Well AFAIK Muslims don't dispute the bloody conquering nature of Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him!!!) nor his marriage to a 6 year old girl (and subsequent rape thereof.)<br /><br />You know, I once went to a bible study with a friend who invited me. I liked it, very cool, I went for the better part of 6 months once a week. I ended up reading some C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity and The Screwtape Letters) as well as the ENTIRE bible and for a while I thought I might buy into it, but I never did. I couldn't do it, it was too much of a leap for me. But I appreciate the inspiration and comfort Christianity can provide and I generally tend to like (non-political) Christian folks. The friend who invited me remains one of my best friends.Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-6610007135042518492009-09-03T17:20:11.286-05:002009-09-03T17:20:11.286-05:00I see Deac and Darth enjoyed the post.
:)I see Deac and Darth enjoyed the post.<br /><br />:)Big Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02510881583909431416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-62330518359820528882009-09-03T13:41:04.361-05:002009-09-03T13:41:04.361-05:00I don't have much practical knowledge of Islam...I don't have much practical knowledge of Islam or the Q'uran, but from what I understand, whereas the gospels were penned within a relatively close time frame to Jesus (compared to the vast majority of other ancient texts on which we rely for history), the documents that ascribed miracles and such to <b>Mohammed</b> were penned CENTURIES after his death. As such, not only do they seem like a clear add-on, I also wonder how much of the history of his life and actions is accurate. The gospels existed in multiple languages with a multitude of fragmented copies that could be put togehter, compared, contrasted, etc. I'm not sure to what degree that can be said of texts about Mohammed, so I am equally unlikely to feel comfortable maligning him as I am unlikely to trust any supernatural accounts of him.<br /><br />All that being said, I agree that Jesus was the single most "walk the walk and talk the talk guy" in the spiritual Judeo/Christian/Islamic history.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-9658811067305704202009-09-03T12:53:43.365-05:002009-09-03T12:53:43.365-05:00I'll say this about Jesus: he seems like he wa...I'll say this about Jesus: he seems like he was a pretty cool guy. He's the most plausible of the prophets to me. His message is truly a godly one. Unlike Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him), a murderous psychopathic pedophile. How anybody can revere him (PBUH heh) is beyond me. Scientology is beyond ridiculous. Mormons are very nice people, they're the most honest and genuine followers of their faith IMHO.<br /><br />I'll say this for religion: I'm glad I live in a (mostly) Christian nation. I'm a "cultural Christian", I celebrate Christmas and I prescribe to the whole peace n love thy neighbor thing. It makes my neighbors nice, tis a moderating influence for the worst instincts of man.Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-79344356233503184192009-09-03T12:13:21.042-05:002009-09-03T12:13:21.042-05:00I prefer to think of belief in Jesus as getting in...I prefer to think of belief in Jesus as getting in the express lane. I don't actually believe that failing to accept Jesus openly while on this planet is an instant, irrevocable ticket to Hell. Too many things in the Bible and too many things about Jesus' approach fly in the face of that. Though at some point, I believe you are called to stand before Jesus and make a choice, since he is the advocate and the bridge between us and the divine.<br /><br />As for the "hide and seek" aspect of God, God can either let us choose to believe in Him and seek Him out and have true free will...or He could constantly loom over us and speak to us, essentially compelling us to obey by waggling His finger openly at us every time we do wrong. But I don't see how it can be both ways or for there to be a middle ground. It's either we have a choice to love Him or we have to be puppets. I'll take the former, as the benefits of that far outweight the stressors.<br /><br />I can understand your reluctance to trust "documented" miracles pre-Jesus. But if Jesus hadn't been doing miracles, I don't see (a) how all 11 apostles would have preached him as risen and put themselves so at risk unless he had actually returned to them after the crucifixion, and (b) why Jewish priests/leaders of the time wouldn't have refuted him outright as a sham...if I recall correctly, Jesus was decried as a sorcerer in some old Jewish official records, when in fact it would have been better to out him as a fake. Seems that the Jewish folks who were troubled by him and had authority still believed he was doing something more than tricks.Deacon Bluehttp://holyhell.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6803135128442396638.post-10752543415995668452009-09-03T12:02:56.413-05:002009-09-03T12:02:56.413-05:00Very interesting thoughts Deac, very cool.
Just ...Very interesting thoughts Deac, very cool. <br /><br />Just wrt to these documented miracles, well, I hardly think that a bunch of eye witnesses in the deserts of the fertile crescent some 2,000 years ago can be taken at word. Why doesn't He do it all today? In front of camera for all to see? I mean what an unbelievable trick question!<br /><br />Believe in me and heaven for you, don't believe and it's hell. Geez. That's pretty unfair. Accepting this claim is no more reasonable than accepting a snake oil salesman's claim that without his piss water you're gonna die.<br /><br />Jesus sounds like a cool guy, but is he really different than the guys on the street who claim to be the second coming? Why not believe them too? How do you know they're not legit? You'll only believe it if a bunch of guys write it down and pass it on for 2,000 years?<br /><br />Why would an omnipotent being, a personal God, play hide-n-seek like this? Presenting us with the ultimate cosmic trick question.<br /><br />That's what I cannot get past. God has given me the divine gift of reason, but to achieve the ultimate goal I have to suspend it based on stories that have been repeated and likely twisted over 2,000? You know how tall tales develop. They take a kernel of truth and as it is repeated it snowballs into a ridiculous fable.<br /><br />Again, I cannot say whether or not God exists and whether he "cares" about us, or "knows" us. But he's got quite the sense of humour and playfulness if he does!<br /><br />If when I die I find myself in front of a tribunal asking me why I didn't believe, I think I'll have a fantastic defense!Darth Whiteynoreply@blogger.com